Projectiles incapacitate by damaging or destroying the central nervous system, or by causing significant and potentially lethal blood loss. 45 ACP It has less recoil, is less expensive and its penetration apparently compares favorably with the larger-sized rounds. When the .223 exits the barrel of a gun, it flies at more than 3,200 feet per second, and is still going 1,660 feet per second after traveling 500 yards. WebAs shown in Fig. You have bo clue what youre talking about other than maybe your steel target fell over a little easier with a heavier bullet at the range. Good job Chris and the rest of you but remember when you give gun advise target shooting and self defense shooting are two different scenarios and one can get you deadyou cant shoot my gun as good as me but you can shoot your gun because its the best one for you. Let the Craftsman pick his tools! Scratch expensive 45s. Chris Bartocci on a YouTube video explains why MARSOC went away from this 1911. The officer fired three round from his 9mm Baretta 92F. If I am just going to the range with my son, I prefer the .45. Doctors later determined that this round was not survivable. ), and I can buy twice the ammo and get twice the practice. Then moved to 10mm (after the 1986 Miami shootout). Most self-defense shootings take place inside 20 feet and are over in seconds; if Im out in public and shooting beyond that distance, itll probably be tough to sell as self-defense to a judge and/or jury anyway. Maybe if you were trying to make 100+ yard shot thatd make a little difference. In the end public opinion and perception has a great deal to do with defense decisions. thats a monster, 67 about 260 and has hands as big as a base ball mitt, when he carries concealed, he goes with a Glock 43 which looks like a toy in his very large hands. The 9mm is being adopted by military and law enforcement due to its higher capacity and lower price, as well as the reduced recoil which increases accuracy for many who find the .45 a bit much to handle. .45 ACP vs 9mm: Which Is Better? - Gun Digest Now that has some stopping power and even at 600 yards. I think it is more the exception than the rule. Four ribs had essentially turned to dust. Not to suggest that a skilled shooter (and/or soldier or Marine) couldnt shoot it, but almost anybody is going to be faster with a 9mm in their hands. I have a medical issue that makes it easier for me to carry a double action in a very small package. You know, Indians killed each other, white settlers, and hunted with a bow &. To answer the question which is better 9mm or 45APC. Tissue inside the human body is remarkably elastic, even vital organs such as the lungs, bowels or circulatory system. When they strike, the bullets rotate, and more of their surface hits the body. The test results disclosed that the .45 round displaced an average of 4.22 cubic inches of tissue, the 10mm round 4.11 cubic inches and the 9mm round 2.82 cubic inches. But with my Kimber Colt 45 I hit first shot no problem and it left that watermellon in disaster. We need to dial back our expectations of how effective a pistol is, regardless of caliber, barring brain or spine shots. If the technology got better for one caliber, it got better for all of them!! Its too small. I have most of the makers revolver & simi-auto, in most of the major calibers. He watched MARSOC during a multi-national special forces competition, MARSOC couldnt compete with the low capacity 1911. Model. WebChronic kidney disease is a disease characterized by progressive damage and loss of function in the kidneys. Concurr on 45 and m14 . I guarantee with proper shot placement, either round will do. I also reload/handload have shot competitively and have hunted all my life. WebThe 45 will but them down and bleed them out real quick with a gut shot, the 9mm will have them flopping around and may not stop them from firing back, also from the pools of blood near the bodies the 45 does more damage. I much prefer the 45 acp and have used it on game from deer to moose and it always was my go to gun. For members of the hand-cannon clique, toting a weapon loaded with anything less is just asking to be shot or killed by street punks who are feelin lucky.. R45 Ammo Type: .45 ACP. first handgun i ever fired was glock27 .40SW she was snappy at first but 16 years later and after shooting lots of .45 and 9, i am back to .40SW for HD purposes. Why dont these experts just admit that they prefer Glocks and let it go at that? But I do like Cor- Bon, and Glaser POWRBALL BY COR-BON. But with the way things are going today I decided it was time, so I just bought S&W M&P 9 Shield. Marine Force Recon Vietnam Vet. Not aim shoot. I think its preference and if you can conceal it. We enjoy our 2nd amendment and want it protected and were prepared to give our life to defend our country. Out charges the male mental with a screw driver in his hand. When a handgun is bought for personal protection, whether in the home or on the street, its purpose is the application of deadly force to protect your own life, the lives of others, and to prevent serious physical harm. Episode 424 is the perfect companion to this post because we discuss caliber and it's relation to hit factor! Accounting for human anatomy and the fact that an agent may fire at a suspect from a variety of angles, it was established that 12 inches was the minimum Yes, I will agree that air resistance is constantly at work against a bullet, thereby slowing it down as it travels toward its intended target. All this scientific garbage really sounds great, but if you need fifteen rounds to eliminate a threat you got real bad aiming habits. 15 -25 yards lol I can hit you in between the eyes with my co2 bb pistol. All this is much different than the British Armys approach to marching headfirst into conflict, taking aim and firing. Shot placement?! However, others say that the lowly .22 LR has the best stopping power, since it stays in the targets body and bounces around, shredding arteries and punching holes in internal organs. The .45 knocked him on his ***. For the spray and pray that they teach nowadays the high cap 9mm is good. ammo. .45 in Nam and owned one for several years. Also SOCOM has been using hollowpoint ammunition for years, but primarily against unsanctioned terrorist personnel. This is why officers typically carry as many shoulder weapons as possible in their cars. Creatine But thats a subject for another article. This represents a cultural shift in America. Knock down power. That alone could be a convincing argument to switch platforms. False. Let us know your thoughts in the comments below! Would the same shot with More bullet have made a difference i think not. A 45acp will deliver more damage to a human body that a 9mm. Remember, people dont have health bars. Reality. This whole conversation for over 2+ years is hilarious. Wow now this argument of 9 mm verses 45 acp is stupid. Reddit One writer mentioned the old adage about wounding one and it takes two more to remove him from the field of battle. This type of damage is known as permanent cavity. Whether it hits the shoulder, the leg, arm, hip, whatever. When I left LE I traided for a S&W 39-2 9mm. I sort of like the Canik TP9v2, with Browning BXP xpoint 147 gr load. I still prefer the .45. With all the discussion about hitting power of the big rounds, That is not the case with the new loads. I know this is off topic. When dealing with a highly motivated target, milliseconds matter. It is often said in sports talk, that the game is a game of inches. This is also true in life and death gun battles like the FBI Miami shootout. Guns dont kill people. You hit it dead on its not the cal thats most important its what you can do with it. One other thought dont ever modify the trigger on your self-defensive gun if you ever have to use it in those situations and lawyer finds that out he will own everything you have. This is just one of them: https://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/. I am a classic ). Cyst fluid rich in lipids and inflammatory factors is a characteristic pathological manifestation of ACP and may play a very important role in hypothalamic injury caused by tumors. Everyone talking about knock down power verses speed seems like. SGT SmallwoodUSMC/LTC SmallwoodUSArmy retired. Still, no one should select a caliber based on the assumption that it will expand sufficiently to incapacitate an assailant. THAT shot better make a change. They have to show the bean counters proof for the money to fund the switch of caliber. The bullet had disintegrated his spleen and torn his aorta. 9mm. Multiple hits are extraordinarily unlikely. Sawed-off Ammo Type: 12 gauge. For me I have a 9mm that is concealable as well as my AR15 223 and like some of the others on here I would rather us my 15. Back then we all agreed the larger rounds had better stopping power. With this in mind, we will now explore handgun wounding factors. My bottom line is to shoot what you shoot the best. Give me a break!! So modern ammo IS NOT the reason to switch back to the 9mm. Yes, I know it was a +P round, but then, there arent any grizzly bears in my neck of the woods. The .22, meanwhile, leaves the muzzle at 2,690 feet per second, and slows to 840 feet per second at 500 yards. The absolute best thing that anybody can do, find a pistol that suits you that you like, get a high capacity round, and train yourself in situational awareness so you dont have to worry about shooting somebody on accident. We will stand at 7 to 20 yards (your choice) and shoot each other in the chest. Never shoot a large caliber man with a small caliber weapon. This includes victims shot by suspetcs and suspects shot by our officers. Thats what I pack in the deep woods. If you use .22 mag, muzzle flash is pronounced and may have some fear factor with its use. Where a bullet hits the human body is also a major factor on whether it inflicts a mortal wound. So many guns so little time! Beats. The point here is this: it is okay that the Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command has decided to issue only Glock 19's. cause if they did there would not be so many innocent victims being injured and killed all because they couldnt hit the side of a barn with a soft ball from 5 ft. In the words of Dr. Peter Rhee, a leading trauma surgeon and a retired Navy captain with 24-years of service, talking about all handgun wounds including .45 ACP and 9mm, he said, A Handgun wound is simply a stabbing with a bullet. D.R. Mamma and papa went getting along I guess. After hours of research, I ordered a Glock .357 sig. As a civilian with a concealed carry permit, my rule is that I will carry the heaviest, store bought self defense round that I can buy. .45 acp is a good round and I prefer it used in close quarter environments becuse it is heavier and pack more energy. Not to mention costs savings in ammo which is a big deal both in the government and civilian perspective. I just had to get my 2 cents in. But you still want the best caliber possible, because while people are disposed to fall down when shot, not every target does. That was with 6 shot revolvers or 17+1 round Glock 17s. 45 acp damage human body 45 acp damage human body on jun 11, 2022 on jun 11, 2022 The impact of the injury would depend on where the bullet went besides your stomach. I usually only post on the Reloading and Springfield portions of this forum, but I feel it needs to be stated of course that all the well educated and sincere folks who have posted actual facts regarding calibers and flung mass "shapes" are simply trying to destroy the internet and forums like these. Tearing and rupturing is common in tissue surrounding the wound channel. Did you know that Durys has been in business since 1959? You may be knocked down and have to squeeze off a once and last shot to save you life. True enough, but the dead enemy will not lie there or sit-up and shoot or pull the pin on a grenade on you as the wounded enemy might. WHICH HANDGUN ROUND HAS THE BEST STOPPING POWER? If you are in the sixties o more 9 mm is the best choice. Every shooting incident is a unique and unreplicable event. I have 9 mm and I own mostly 45 ACPs, I can conceal a combat Commander with a small of the back holster with shorts T-shirt and flip-flops and nobody will know its there. Proper shot placement is the lamest argument based on logic. The reason they went over to the +P was to punch through windshields. Been involved in violent life or death confrontations for well over 40 years. Pistols are primarily used for close combat. I just make it my business to shoot all handgun cartridges well out to 25yards. I think the pain element is still to much with paint balls for Obamas new policy I think dart guns with the rubber suction cups would be more his speed. Every round has its purpose. An exit wound differs greatly from an entrance wound. The one thing Ive learned and seen over a lot of shooting is that a 9mm with FMJ bullets is mostly useless. High-velocity Overall I enjoyed reading your piece and found it noteworthy that Smith&Wesson ( one of the great disappointments of this and the last century) was eliminated from the contract competition. 45 muzzle velocity is 500 feet per second and the 9mil is 1500 fps. The 45 hit harder and put your target down more quickly than the 9 mm. 158 gr 0.357" Magnum semi-jacketed bullet will penetrate outside skin of car door and sometimes just penetrate the inside skin. How about a 147gr vs 155 gr comparison? The science says otherwise. But the major difference is that you would have been 2 rounds away from having to reload as compared to 6 rounds in the case of a Glock 17. Youve been practicing with your weapon on a consistent basis. That has been the best comment so far. I hadnt even gotten halfway through the article before coming to the same conclusion. Their over 800 FPS and some approaching 900 FPS with the hotter +P loads. Still, I think when we're talking about pistol caliber handguns, it's pretty hard to measure any substantial accuracy differences when we're rarely shooting at distances greater than 15-25 yards if that. Just bless his little Prsident heart. damage He gets there with his partner and the front door of the bus opens. And thats hardly re-enacting a self defense scenario. The argument about effectiveness, capacity, reliability, stopping power, etc has been going on as long as I remember, ad nauseum. This doesnt factor shot placement. So, have you experienced shooting someone at close range with each caliber to determine the stopping power of each round? Tests show that while it travels at 1,154 feet per second at 500 yards, slower than the .223 at that distance, the AKs bullet can deliver 370 foot-pounds of force, more than the AR. With the continuation of the pussification of America we see so many in posotions of power making decisions that follow the continuation of that thinkinhg. This remained the norm in the FBI until May 2014. What makes the .223 potentially deadlier than the .22 is its velocity. Thats because the 7.62 is almost twice as massive as a .223. Much more likely is that you will be suddenly and unexpectedly attacked by a rapidly and unpredictably moving target with limited opportunities for counter attack. Both hit 15 first shot, .45 exploded watermelon leaving trails about 15 feet behind, 9mm put a hole in it nothing more. Are there exceptions? Now as far as the technology of rounds go, technology has improved for all of the basic calibers including 45 so there is no advantage there for the 9. pulverizing bones, tearing blood vessels and liquefying organs. She remembered one young man who was admitted to her emergency room with an abdominal wound from a hollow-point round. My personal opinion is that the military has found that many recruits are unable to accurately fire the .45 and cannot manage the recoil. Everything from grip, shooting stance, limp wrist-ing and recoil spring pressure was examined. I am old school. spot on ! American troops in the Philippines discovered this important distinction in the late 19th century. All studies are greatly flawed and there is no serious pursuit of better studies due to the enormous difficulty, if not impossibility, of scientifically analyzing real-life shooting incidents. Any other manufacturers that have been notified that they are not going to be selected may be waiting for the DoD to make the official announcement. There ya go compromise just carry both. Im sure, given the choice, MARSOC troops would take a 15 round FNX45 over a Glock 15. The will to live and fight varies from person-to-person. What i find interesting is that so many people have so much to say and they have never been in actual shoot out. Shot with 300 win mag at 500 yards. If you can fire without remorse. It worries me that you feel safe carrying a .45 acp around bears and moose. Sources say Jimmy Lam used a TEC-9 style pistol, illegal to sell in the state for almost two decades. My understanding in past test 9mms dont do well in front car windshield stops. He sure has screwed us military retires over the last several years! Spread the word; knowledge is power! In his 1989 treatise, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, Supervisory Special Agent Urey Patrick explained that the goal of an officer in a life-threatening shooting incident is to incapacitate the adversary as quickly as possible. Im sorry, but the .50 Barrett sucks there is no match grade ammo available for it. Vector Gimme a break! well lets fac the facts ere during th banna war the marines choose the 45 acp end of story. I wonder what the future holds? It is also of considerable general interest if for no other reason than to show how often the movie makers and novel writers make appalling blunders. Sudden, immediate and even instant death. Such as my Kimber and Walther and can never forget the CZ shadow 2. However, I purchased the 9 mm because for a carry gun I feel safer with the style of firearm I bought for daily carry purposes. Small grip,,Low recoil,,, easy conceability One size does Not fit all. A 9 is a great backup. Patrick explains in his treatise that, A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. I prefer 45 revolvers. Penetration, velocity, expansion, its all there. Yet the 12 is more powerful and more lead, but one shot can put some on their hind end. I only want to pull the trigger 1-3 times. With a bone thats been shot with a standard-issue caliber handgun, youll see a break, a hole in the bone, and maybe some displacement. How about that..most people shot by handguns survive. I have not fired it yet but have dry fired it some to get back in tune. The only way to ensure immediate incapacitation is to shoot the adversary in the brain or upper spinal cord (i.e., central nervous system). .40 S&W I carry 180 grain HP. Once you run out of rounds, youre done. end of discussion. Shorter barrels or longer range of initial impact will likewise decrease the possibility of expansion. .45 ACP Damage Body Shots Head Shots Sounds Firing (9mm) Firing (.45 ACP) Reloading Swapping To Rarity The Vector is a rare SMG that spawns mainly in Hatchet Cases in the Hydra Bunker and rarely in the Storm Bunker (10% chance). Patricks treatise outlines the following factors to consider regarding handgun bullets: Accordingly, the best handgun rounds will reliably cause a permanent cavity that will penetrate the soft tissue of an adversary between 12 and 18 inches. So, the answer is simple, right? Hollow points also create a larger temporary cavity. We all, sitting safe and pretty, can discuss this and that but we are NOT in their shoes. Even minor and common factors can significantly impact the wounding ability of a round, including damage to a hollow point through contact with any intervening material, from glass to bone. Riley, love your artical. Bob. Much of the difference is What we do know, however, is that when most people are shot, they fall down. Anyone who has seen Clint Eastwoods Dirty Harry movies is familiar with Sergeant Callahans favorite sidekick, his .44 magnum revolver. Riley Bowman is the Director of Training at ConcealedCarry.com and the Host of the Concealed Carry Podcast. Request product info from top Ammunition companies. However, the round stopped just short of entering Platts heart/aorta, only penetrating his torso about six or seven inches. Which might had something to do with losing the Revolutionary War, where Americans used guerilla tactics. Fire Rate: 240 rounds/minute. There will always by that guy who can take several shots before dropping, and there will always be that perfect head shot. Theres no reason to mince words a handgun for self defense exists to create damage to the human body. I have several calibers, personally I like my Sig 239 40cal as my sidearm ! He didnt get more than three feet from the bathroom. The only reason law enforcement and, military use a 9mm is budget. This story of a Chicago-suburb police officer should answer that one for you. I like all of them. If you need to kill someone with a single shot, a rifle is what you need, not a handgun.. you should read TIFU my boss shot me reddit. The projectile is losing velocity and arcing downward. Heck a well placed .22 in the head can get the job done. Many factors, including the moisture content, knot content, tree age and even the separation of the boards, can give rise to highly variable results. I own one of each 9mil Ruger,Capacity 17 rounds,CZ 45 10 rounds.For stopping power at close range ,I prefer the 45.It is harder to conceal because of its size and weight.The Ruger 9 mil is easier to carry concealed,And a whole lot lighter.Both are comfortable to shoot,to me.A 45 is not for everyone.If you carry concealed the weapon of chose is what you are comfortable with.Handling and performance,depends on the owner.The Military has been changing weapons since day one.I suppose it usually comes down who can supply what the military wants and how much they cost.I personally have handled the Glock 17 and the 19 and dont care for them.I prefer the Ruger or the CZ. However, for the civilian this is generally an impractical plan for a variety of reasons. Use your heads!! Better get that imagination under control, tough guy! It can also destroy your aim, and the strongest bullet on earth is useless if it doesnt hit the bad guy coming at you. A pistol just sucks in that situation. The deers shot with 9 ran and ran far compared to the short distance the 45 shot deer covered (100yds or less). EVER! This pits apples to apples and will once and for all lay to rest all this ludicrous debate. The general plan of attack for officers is to use some weapon other than a handgun. I am not going to address the whole military, spec-ops, battlefield blah blah. Now they have announced they are moving back to the 9mm in the form of the new Gen5 Glock 17M. Fun to shoot a couple of hundred rounds at the range, without soreness. So its definitely capable. Indeed, physiological factors play a very small part in rapid incapacitation of a target. I carry a 9mm on me at all times, and I feel it is adequate enough to do what I need from a handgun, but I have them loaded with 147gr JHP ammo. Also, I have pretty much explained what you have just said. 0.177" Steel air gun dart will penetrate to shank, in skin, at 120 ft/s. The concern that a round will pass through an assailant and harm an innocent bystander is largely exaggerated. So for over a couple hundred years size mattered in stopping power, or say incapacitating an opponent. Slow-motion videos of ballistics tests clearly illustrate this difference. I have both, like them all, and carry them because rifles are hard to conceal! Along that line of thought, I bought my tiny little 24 year old niece a pistol when she moved to Kansas by herself. 12 shots fired. How many decades are we going to have this debate? also carry a lcp ruger 380 in a desantis pocket holster, covers the trigger guard real nice. Handgun cartridges just dont do that. The new .50Ae desert eagle has as much recoil as the 1911/M45 which is unrealistc (the .45 has alot less recoil). I like to shoot three-four people a weektime permitting, of course. The only other way to end an adversarys life-threatening action is through circulatory collapse. and manufacturers. Laboratory studies of fish have found plastics can cause harm to reproductive systems and stress the liver. Platt was killed at the end of the gunfight, but not before unleashing deadly mayhem. The earlier FBI testing left no doubt that tissue displacement was greater with the larger rounds. finds relevant news, identifies important training information, All rights reserved. The guys that could handle the .45, all preferred it. In case you didn't get the memo, the FBI's ballistic testing labs are the best in the world, and they've been doing it for a long time. After receiving this wound, Platt initiated a devastating attack upon the surrounding FBI agents, killing two (including Agent Dove) and severely wounding two more. Having fired 45 ACP and 9mm at human targets the 9 took 3 sometimes 4 hits c.o.m. I know .45 is a good SD round against the two legged threats. You, ordinary walking around citizen are likely to be accosted from very close range, within say 10 feet to up close. This is because, unless you get a central nervous system hit extremely difficult there is no physiological reason a target would become incapacitated until blood loss and extreme loss of blood pressure occurs. Fire Rate: 1,000 rounds/minute. I am older now, living in the city. Its a High Point .40S&W. I think it maybe a case of, its better to wound the enemy, than to kill him. .22lr is an assassins round yet we all have fun plinking around with it. Some of the best handgun calibers for self defense are: To adequately understand the efficiency of incapacitating a target, we must have some basic understanding of the mechanics of wounding how damage to the human body works. Mine is easily concealable, accurate and has never failed to function. I settled on a 9-round single-stack .40 S&W that has almost identical dimensions to the same pistol in 9mm. In a statement, the FBI said he used a modified an SKS , the predecessor to the AK-47 which shoots the same bullets. Do you really think that all of SOCOM is using rifles and SMGs, and the Marines are using pistols? I am just way more comfortable with the way it shoots. Confirmed by projectiles taken out of Papa. I trap and shoot most animals with a Browning 1911-22 now. and departments. I believe you are in some way getting a kick back from someone, wanting to push the idea that the 9mm is more affective than the 45. While 9mm is not as good at killing men as the 45 Auto, it is smaller, lighter, cheaper, easier to handle, and allows more opportunities to miss the target.. There have been several attempts by ballistics engineers to increase the wounding ability of a round. The slower 45acp round FMJ will pass through but leaving more energy expended plus a larger wound channel so the same to a lesser degree applies to the 45 acp FMJ; but, if you have 45acp JHP in the gun usually one hit whether it be in the shoulder, leg or chest area game over. Great article by the way. Im no expert by the way but, I know that said air resistance on the nose of the bullet is NOT the predominate factor in any ballistics array. Until someone actually compares a 9mm of comparable bullet weight and charge to a 45 acp of the same I will continue in my retirement to carry my tried and true 45acp with a third more bullet weight and very similar penetration even with biased testing of much different bullet weights and charges. Im in the process to actually buy one. Meaning the shooter, where a second shot will go off up in the air. If you dont have an excellent chance against a large carnivore with it. Your story could have just as easily gone the same way but with a Glock 21 (similar to Timothy Gramins experience). Japanese quail chicks in a studythe results Thats right George. Dan, your and many others comments ring true. Its disturbing to me that we give up performance for comfort.